Issue No. 232 - Wednesday, October 22, 2003
Moderated by: Thurmond Moore III
Committed to carrying on the fine works of
Hale Sweeny and Jerry Dewbre

Hi all.

Concerning using super glue for dopping:

My problem is getting the stuff to release. I clean
both the dop and rough with methanol before
dopping and use TENAX superglue. After destroying
a Lone Star cut quartz using heat on the dop I have
used boiling water to release my stones. Usually 1/2
to 1 hour at a low boil will break the bond. So far
I have not lost any more stones using this method.


Index to Today's Digest

01  RE: Dop Popping
02  RE: spessartine garnets from the CA desert!
03  RE: Turquoise
04  RE: Dop Popping
05  RE: Dop Popping
06  RE: Turquoise
07  NEW: Buying & selling gemstone rough via the mail
08  RE: Turquoise
09  RE: Dop Popping
10  RE: Dop Popping / Turquoise
11  RE: Dop Popping


Subject: Re: Dop Popping
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:49:51 -0700
To: LapidaryArtsDigest <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: Dave Arens <gemstonesetc@gci-net.com>

Hi Todd,

>>Does anyone else have this problem?  I just recently got
some Super glue from Jeff Graham's site.<<

Have you given Jeff a shout? I'm sure he may be able to answer your
problem. Anyway, I'm sure he'd like to know if there's a problem with
the stuff.



Subject: Spessartines
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:08:14 -0700
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: Webb Long <webblong@mindspring.com>

Hi Thurmond et Al, There was posted yesterday a photo of some beautiful
garnets  which were labled "spessartines".  Old dumb me for thirty five
years I have been calling those garnets  "spessartite". When did the name
change? Again, they were  dug in California!   Webb


Subject: Natural Turquoise Source
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:51:06 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: mskelly <mskelly@gte.net>

Don't forget that Sleeping Beauty turquoise is available directly from the
I recently read that their material is untreated. Their material is not
cheap -- I bought some sample pieces -- but it sure is pretty.
mskelly in cooling Florida


Subject: "Dop Popping"
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:37:30 -0600
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Todd" <td_gunz@yahoo.com>

Subject: dop popping
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:31:18 -0700 (PDT)
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Alan Sutton <alan923@yahoo.com>

I had this same problem when cutting smaller stones. The Super T is
great if you have a rough surface to attach to but it isn't very good
on a polished surface. I do all my transfers with 5 minute epoxy and
have no problems. The epoxy sticks much better on the polished
pavillion.  I use CA solvent after transferring to disolve the CA off
the uncut crown.  When the crown is finished, just pop the dop and
stone in a jar of acetone overnight and it will disolve the epoxy. Do
not force the stone off the dop as you can actually tear of little
chunks of material from the pavillion!  I had this happen with quartz
and CZ. Just let it soak.  If you get impatient, you can take the dop
out of the acetone every 10-20 minutes and carefully scrape off epoxy
that has softened.  This will speed things up considerably.  I use a
round pointed toothpick to do the epoxy removal so as not to scratch
anything.  Hope this helps.     Alan Sutton


Subject: Dopping.
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:46:15 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: "Jonathan L. Rolfe" <jon@gearloose.com>

At 05:18 PM 10/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>             With this Super T Glue, I'm having a problem with the stones
>"dop popping" right at critical times.  I was just finishing a very nice
>4mm SRB Montana Sapphire.  I'd cut/polished the pavilion without
>incident dopped with superglue, transferred the stone to cut the crown.
>As I went to cut the lap hit some dried glue

All the cyanoacrylates are extremely shock sensitive.  We used to set up
temporary layouts on an optical table with prisms, etc.  A sharp tap from a
piece of wood would instantly release the parts.  So, one bump, one chirp,
ring, screech, or tap, and it's all over.
I have used Devcon 5 minute epoxy for years.  Want to see some sensitive
stones like kunzite, spodumene, and cherry opal done this way?
http://www.battlap.info/redstones.html   Never lost one, never popped a culet.


Subject: If I could have just one stone it would be Turquoise
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:57:17 -0500
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Robert Powell" <texeclectic@earthlink.net>

I am a list member. My name is ROBB

If I could have just one stone it would be Turquoise
One metal  -  It would be silver.

I also have some Turquoise . More than a little, less than a lot.
It is in buckets and cans, Bags and turtle bowls.
The only thing I haven't done is pour it in the bath tub so I can
roll around it like Scrooge McDuck does in his vault of money.
It was purchased some 10 yr. ago from a gentleman who had a store
in Farmington New Mexico . When He closed his shop,
he brought it back this way with him. I bought it by the bucket.

Some is stabilized, some is ready to be stabilized
Some is natural, colors are green, blue dark and light.
Some has a brown or black matrix. Most is American, some Chinese .
Some are nuggets and some is already cut for cabbing
Some is already screened and sorted for glue on applications ( Very
color and size - no dust or crumbs ) or to be drilled for smaller beads.
Some is mixed in with Variscite ( a little ).
Some is hard enough that I can not scratch it with a high speed steel
lathe cutting bit hardness 6 1/2  or better.

If you are interested, give me an email and I will get in touch.
I check my scales to be accurate.
If any of this stone is unsatisfactory, and If I can not make
arrangements to suit ,
return your unused portion of the parcel, and I will refund your money
on that plus your return postage.

I intend to ask the membership what would be an
fair and equitable way of purchasing rough material via the mail.

With my copy of Turquoise, Gemstone of the Century by Oscar T.Branson,

I like this book. It has been reprinted a lot and is available for a
modest price.
I can use the color prints referenced in there by sites as being more or
less representative of that location and shown by page and position .
We can be on the same chapter and verse communicating by phone or email.

If anyone has a different book they would like to use, let me know I may
have it.

Respectfully Yours,
Robert L.Powell


Subject: Buying & selling gemstone rough via the mail
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:18:41 -0500
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Robert Powell" <texeclectic@earthlink.net>

Another question for the group.

I intend to ask the membership what would be a fair and
equitable way of purchasing or selling rough material via the mail.

I am in the market. NOW ,
What are the marketplace rules ?

I need to hear both sides , But I believe
there needs to be the same rules for sellers and buyers.

For moderate priced materials, in moderate sized pieces,
the buyer should be able to try cutting and polishing one piece .
If the buyer is satisfied, Great !!!

Email is cheap and fast.
Discuss alternatives and see if it can be worked out.
If not, return the material and be refunded by that amount,
plus return postage. Cutting and keeping more than one piece
might be considered high grading.

But Scrooge McDuck I am not. If I were I would roll around in
a bathtub full of turquoise like Mr. McDuck in his money vault.
< GRIN >

Thank You very much.
Robert L.Powell


Subject: Re: Issue No. 231 - Tuesday, October 21, 2003
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 23:43:52 EDT
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com
From: Lapadary@aol.com

In a message dated 10/21/03 3:42:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lapidary@caprock-spur.com writes:

  For folks looking for turquoise. 
The latest issue (December, 2003) of Rock & Gem has a couple articles about
turquoise, including a defense of the latest methods of stabilization.
Treatment makes it hard but it also reduces the porosity of the stone. That is a good
side affect of treatment.

I love turquoise for the color, and it is obvious a lot of other people do
too. However, the absorbent, porous nature of the stone did cause problems. Even
taking a shower or going skinny-dipping with a turquoise ring could cause a
color change. (I had to throw in the skinny-dipping since turquoise was so
popular among the long-haired Sixties crowd.)

Apparently the new treated stuff is so good there is no way to tell it from a
natural hard turquoise. The company calls it Sterling Enhanced Turquoise.
However, I was surprised the articles didn't mention the Bad Boys of Cripple
Creek mine. If you want hard turquoise you can buy it straight from the mine. They
have some that is natural and scores over 7.0 on Mohs scale. I've never
checked to see if naturally hard turquoise from the BB of CC mine will absorb water
as quickly as softer natural turquoise does. Treatment can make things better.

We are going to have to live with man made and enhanced gems. They are not
going away. I'm still enough of a Sixties guy to have a strong preference for
natural things. I like turquoise that is naturally hard and I like women without
make-up. I've had to give up the skinny-dipping. I don't want my old body to
offend the esthetic sense of others.

Grant W. Johnston, Chico, CA


Subject: Dop Popping
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:01:58 -0700
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: "Michael Edgett" <chicket@msn.com>

Here's how I dop/transfer. I cut a false table with 600 grit, glue the dop
to the rough surface with cyanoacrylate adhesive. I then cut and polish the
pavilion. I've never had a stone come off the dop when glued to a rough
surface. After the pavilion and girdle are finished, I transfer using 5
minute epoxy to glue the pavilion to its dop. After the glue is well set, I
soak the stone and both dops in warm vinegar overnight with the whole
assembly standing vertically to avoid stress to the epoxy joint. The vinegar
solution severly weakens the cyanoacrylate glue bond and that dop generally
pops off with very little pressure, leaving the pavilion well secured to
it's dop. I've had very good luck with this, particularly since I use
nothing coarser than a 600 grit lap, use a light hand and try to be as
smooth as possible. I've tried using the cyanoacrylates on polished surfaces
and that has never worked well for me, the epoxy works much better. It's
also much safer for the cat.

Michael E.


Subject: Re: Dop Popping & Turquoise
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:08:11 -0700
To: "LapidaryArtsDigest" <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "John McLaughlin" <jemstone@amug.org>

Hi Todd,

I am also a fan of thick super glue (generally selected according to the
cheapest available).  I have no problems with flipping stones about, at
least because of "dop pops".  However, I don't expect speed from the super
glue.  I rarely even bother with accelerator.  All of the problems I
initially experienced were due to cutting the dopped stones before the glue
had firmly set.  I now leave the dopped stones overnight before cutting.  I
dop stones in batches - I generally have two or three large groups of stones
in various stages of cutting, so I don't ever have to wait on the stones I'm
cutting to set up.  I have also found that it is worth the time to remove
the glue by soaking the stone in a solvent - MEK or acetone.  It cleans up
the stone and the dop.

>With this Super T Glue, I'm having a problem with the stones
> "dop popping" right at critical times.

A brief word about the Bad Boys of Cripple Creek as a turquoise source.  My
sister-in-law purchased a small amount of turquoise from those folks as a
birthday gift for me.  While she is competent in judging most faceted gems
(she is a GIA GG) she is not familiar with cabbing rough.  The folks in
Cripple Creek sold her rough that was filled with limonite, charging her
extra because the turquoise was "gold bearing".  There is no gold - just
limonite, a yellowish, soft material that detracts significantly from the
rough.  The rough is worth about 15% of what she paid.

John McLaughlin
Glendale, Arizona


Subject: Re: Issue No. 231 - Tuesday, October 21, 2003
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:10:28 -0300
To: LapidaryArtsDigest <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: David Stanley <davids@mail.cdlto.com.br>

   Re: "Dop Popping"
             Two techniques one might use is cleaning off all excess
glue with alcohol or acetone (on a cotton swab) upon dopping. 2) If
working with wax - use a hot knife to "slice" the stone off the dop. We
sometimes use these techniques in our shop.
   Hope this helps,
        David Epstein


From: JFS41@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:14 PM
Subject: Message from Web Site

  My Uncle was very interested in lapidary. He passed away several years
ago at the age of 92 and we inherited his equipment. One item he made
himself, it is a rock saw capable of slabbing up to 14" and has several
extra blades. It has an electric winch to lift the hinged windowed
cover. It is quite heavy.  Also there are 3 different rock saws
(commercially manufactured) a polishing table and a tumbler. He made a
lot of tables with rock slab tops.

  We need to sell all the items as soon as possible or store them, as we
are removing the Buildings that they are in. The large saw will need to
be dismantled, so if someone is interested they would probably like OT
see it first.

  If you know of anyone that would be interested or know how to contact
same please let me know. You can call John Stewart @ (209) 538-1668 the
equipment is in Modesto, CA.









PERSONALS: (General Lapidary and Faceting)






Lurking is fine, but participation is better for learning !
Post something from your experiences in gemcutting today!

A blonde quickly went out to her mail box, looked in it,
closed the door of the box, and went back in the house.
A few minutes later she repeated this process by checking
her mail again.

She did this five more times, and her neighbor that was
watching her commented: "You must be expecting a
very important letter today the way you keep looking into
that mail box."

The blonde answered, "No, I am working on my computer,
and it keeps telling me that I have mail."

NOTE: (This would be funny if not for the fact that I have customers
that would wonder what the punch line is)



We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.



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