Issue No. 123 - Tuesday May 6, 2003
Moderated by: Thurmond Moore III
Committed to carrying on the fine works of
Hale Sweeny and Jerry Dewbre
From the Moderator:

The conversation on faceting machines needs to be toned
down. Everyone has their favorites. What works for one may
not work for another. If any of the mentioned machines were truely
"junk" the company producing them would no longer be in
business. Remember it is ok to praise a company on this list.
Problems need to be resolved in private so as to not damage any
involved parties in any manner.

Index to Today's Digest

01  RE: Correct cutting
02  NEW: Faceters of the future
03  NEW: Sample defects-One bad apple spoils the barrel.
04  RE: Facetting machines for concave cutting
05  RE: Only Face-Up Performance Matters
06  RE: Faceting Machines
07  RE: DataView under XP Pro
08  RE: TOPIC for this WEEK
09  RE: Week Topic, Rock Shops.
10  RE: Face-up performance . . .
11  RE: Faceters Symposium 2003
12  RE: faceting machines
13  NEW: Carolina Faceter's Club


Subject: Correct cutting
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:39:31 -0400
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Ken Ward" <kenward@bertcopart.com>

I believe your comment is correct for jewelry. Most of us cutters focus on
our interest and want the world to appreciate our concerns. I have sold
peridot, amethyst and citrines with checkerboard crown and very shallow
modified pavilion. They are set in a setting with a lattice behind going in
diagonal direction. The confusion to the eye created by this combination
hides the fact that these are ugly stones outside the setting. Being shallow
they sit close against finger and work well as pendants. I have well cut
examples of the same stones that probably will never sell, except on Ebay.

We sold over 100 stones recently on Ebay because I just could not figure how
to make attractive settings (profitably) that would accommodate well cut

It would help novice type people to explain that commercial concerns and
fine cutting require very different rules. For costly stones that are well
cut settings can be extensively altered and the structural necessities
hidden with small diamonds.

A very good topic for our group. I see very little good cut and polish from
even very high end stores. When I do appraisals I find few stones that merit
even good cut grade.

Ken Ward


Hi Ken,  What portion of the value of a mounted stone can be attributed to
"Good Cutting" ie given exactly the same two pieces and same two stones
differing in cut only (One poor, The other technically correct)?



Subject: Faceters of the future
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:12:56 -0400
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "RICHARD P ROSENTHAL" <kenaii@earthlink.net>

I was just wondering with all the discussion about differant faceters if
there were any thoughts about how some of the new technologies that are
imerging might be incorprated into new machines, like gps and laser type
technology. I  was wondering if you could have a machine built with cost
no object what features would the  members most like to see? I know I
would love to have a machine with a hydaulic chair that would move me
around the work without having to hover over the  machine as I tend to
do. I am sure someone has some more practical suggestions about how
faceters could be improved. Laser levels are comon in in bricklaying
today but I don`t see them in faceters yet.  Any ideas out there for the
dream machine? kenaii@earthlink.net


Subject: Sample defects-One bad apple spoils the barrel.
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:19:22 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: "Jonathan L. Rolfe" <webmaster@gearloose.com>

Doug's disgust with a particular machine and its maker brings to mind a few

1) I once bought a car that was on Consumer Reports' "Avoid" list and had
no trouble with it, but bought several that were on its "Best Value
Checkmarked list" that were utter lemons that even I could not keep running
(And I am a really good Jaguar mechanic, a survival skill required by my
wife!)  As with many perverse mechanical things, "It depends."

2: As a manufacturer of laps I see the entire cross section of users, and
have some sympathy for the machine manufacturers.  For example, I have had
people write because the laps were polishing slowly, and after a year, upon
finally reading the instruction sheet, realized they were expected to put
polishing compound on them.  I chose to regard this as a funny thing with a
happy ending, but what if I had just had a horrible week, or a
hangover?  Who knows how I may have replied?

3:  I believe Doug's experience underlines The Prime Law of
Business...****The Customer is King**** !
  We never know if we are selling to a beginner with their first machine,
working on their first stone, or to a GG Grand Master, and if we mess up
ONCE and treat ONE customer ONCE as anything less than Our Regent, they
will not forget it.  Nor should they.  Good reputations are earned, and can
be lost overnight by insulting or demeaning a customer just as badly as if
a crime were committed by selling citrine as topaz.  In the business of
pleasing customers, one is forever on probation.
To prove that the Marketplace has a long memory, think of everyone you
know.  I have a friend who will NEVER buy a General Motors product.  Why?
Because in 1982 or so, she bought a Fiero, a known lemon.  The dealer
treated her with contempt. That was in the last century!  Will Firestone
ever recover from Killer Tires?  Will the hordes of people downsized by
GE's "Neutron Jack" Welch ever have a GE appliance when it comes time to
replace one?
I bet we all know someone who feels they were cheated or mistreated, and
carry the memory forward as a learning experience that is reflected in
their purchasing habits, and that is as it should be, because it is
ultimately not Government or Society's job to hold companies
accountable..it is up to the "King", the Customer- Our Beloved (And
sometimes demanding) Paymasters!


Well Said Jon,  Thanks 


*Redwing Batts fly by Day and Night to produce beautiful gems.*

Subject: Facetting machines for concave cutting
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:32:22 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: "Jonathan L. Rolfe" <webmaster@gearloose.com>

>Subject: Facetting machines for concave cutting
>What would be everyones choice for a machine that would be used for
>cutting both flat facets and concave.  This machine would be used for
>production cutting of both of the types mentioned above.

Polymetric.                 .

(Talkative Gearloose's shortest answer in History)

Subject: Only Face-Up Performance Matters
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:51:56 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: mskelly <mskelly@gte.net>

Hello to the List:
If I am buying a stone, only face-up optical performance matters.
If I am cutting a stone, I cut for precision -- meets, angles, etc. And if
the stone doesn't have "good" performance, I don't use that set of cutting
instructions again.
As a side note, I have noticed a high correlation between good cutting and
good performance.

mike from heating-up Florida


Subject: RE: Faceting Machines
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:15:11 -0400
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Tyler Allen" <t.allen@mindspring.com>

What a great idea it would be to have a dial indicator that actually
worked the way it should.  What a wonderful world it would be if I could
sit at home and cut stones eight hours day and make the money I make
traveling all over a northern territory I can't stand selling medical
software.  After on a Raytech for 15 years I will put the quality of my
work up against ANYONES even the old timers mentioned in your post.  The
point of this message is anyone who would cut for a living should never
limit themselves to one machine to make a living off of.

I can cut a round brilliant from start to finish with my EYE only on my
Raytech in an hour...I am not a fectron fan and have considered the
machine before, I felt the assembly was too small for my hand which is
not big making it a perfect machine for a lady.  In any regards if your
dial indicator goes out always have a back up plan...

Tyler Allen
Atlanta GA


Subject: RE: Issue No. 122 - Monday May 5, 2003
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 18:23:16 -0700
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com (LapidaryArtsDigest)
From: "Larry Austin" <gemsmith@earthlink.net>

Noel and Thurmond:

I am running Dataview under Windows XP Pro on my laptop with no problems.
But I have to admit that I copied it from my Windows 98 SE desktop machine.
I am also not running it through a DOS window; I am accessing it through
GemCad for Windows.

Larry, from the shores of Puget Sound
DISCLAIMER: In the case that I contradicted something else I said in this
or some other post, the verbiage that is correct will override the incorrect
verbiage and the incorrect verbiage will be void!

Hi Larry,  I like that disclaimer. LOL



Subject: Re: TOPIC for this WEEK
Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 20:30:51 -0500
To: LapidaryArtsDigest <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: Downey <alckytxn@swbell.net>

 >>From the Moderator:
 > I heard an interesting comment on TV this weekend.
 > If a stone is to be sold for use in Jewelry the "ONLY"
 > thing that matters is Face UP Optical performance as seen
 > by the buyer. This statement seems to make a lot of sense
 > to me since most consumers know NOTHING about
 > meetpoints or other cutting parameters.  What does the
 > membership think about this statement?
 > Thurmond
 > ==========================

At first glance I thought this was a great step forward but soon
realized it would be quite misleading if the info. given stopped with
the above exact statement. It says 'a stone'. It doesn't say diamond
,ruby ,etc. Even if it had said diamond there are other issues. But if
we think about natural/synthetic. Inclusions so 'heavy' the long term
durability of the stone is at risk. And the 'softness' of some
materials(like opal,laser gem,etc.) or the easy cleavages of stones like
Kunzite. Plus stones which sometimes fade if worn frequently in
sunlight(spodumene,some topazes,etc.) we will see the danger of trying
to educate the public with some type of blanket statement or rule of
thumb. Just consider the 'discussions' we trained and experienced
lapidaries get into over issues like this! Of course we realize great
looking stones can be cut with almost no 'meetpoints' and with total
disregard to some arbitrary width. But competition has little to do with
real life except for the occasional improvement in technique/process. In
racing autos we realize no one really needs to travel 140 mph in
leathers and a roll cage to get to their 9-5 job. But racing brought us
fuel injection. MacPherson struts,etc. I'm told that commercial cutting
houses have increased their attantion to proper angles, and maybe better
polishing habits, perhaps due to increased awareness by the buying
public of these issues. Or perhaps forums like our own have assisted in
spreading the word about how good a properly cut stone can look. As much
maligning as they receive, the 'home shopping' channels have at least
expanded (in some cases created) markets for colored stones. Direct
PRICE PER CARAT comp. is difficult for us 'western' society inhabitants
but quality-wise there is little comparison. Still, it may mena
educating the average person up to near 'connoiseur' level to earn their
trust and their greenbacks. You can't do that with one sentence. Too bad.
1 Lucky Texan


Subject: Week Topic, Rock Shops.
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:03:43 -0500
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Rich" <richtherm@bluemarble.net>

Hello All,

Been lurking again, sorry.  Between work, travel and remodeling my shop
WWWWAAAAAHHHHHOOOOO!!!!!!!!!) I haven't had much time to join in.  I
have enjoyed all the discussions though.

On the topic of Optical Per and Tech Correct cutting.......  I always
try to show the difference and teach the folks buying my stones on what
a "good" cut is.  Even if they don't buy from me, they will know what to
look for when they go out.  But it is actually good for business showing
them the "proper" methods.  It is good for repeat business when they
know what to look for.

One more thing....  I'm headed to Omaha Nebraska next week and was
wondering if anyone out there knows of any rock shops or clubs I might
visit while I'm there.  It would have to be after work hours though.

Rich Ashcraft
Lyons, IN


Hi Rich, Even though I have never sold a cut stone I always try to educate
those I come into contact with who show an interest. Saddly many just don't
seem to care. They just want a stone with a name that they hear a lot on "TV"
and that "Sparkles"


Subject: Face-up performance . . .
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 06:23:55 EDT
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Ballent@aol.com

I believe you are referring to a comment made  on the Gem Shopping
Network.  I watch the show from time to time just to see the beautiful stones
they have to sell, even if the "retail" prices they say their stones are
worth seem  exaggerated.

If I am cutting for someone else's enjoyment, face-up performance is the most
important.  If I am cutting for my own satisfaction, exactness in meetpoints,
etc. is the most important.  However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do your
best to accomplish BOTH precise meets AND face-up performance.

Tim Ballentine
Jacksonville, FL


Hi Tim, I agree 100 percent. The comment on TV just gave me a new perspective
that I had not considered before. That of a commercial cutter / jeweler.


Subject: Faceters Symposium 2003
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
To: LAPIDARY ARTS & FACETERS DIGEST <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: Glenn Klein <glennklein@yahoo.com>

Hi All: Here is the Schedule of Events for the Faceters Symposium 2003 at
Ventura, CA.....just one month away now.  Get your $90 in for the very full three
days of an outstanding Symposium for faceters.  Just ask me for the packet of
information if you need it.  glennklein@yahoo.com Change happens....but as of
today, this is what is scheduled for your faceting happiness at Ventura. SCHEDULE
OF EVENTS. FACETERS SYMPOSIUM 2003Presented by the Faceters Guild of Southern
California at the combined AFMS/CFMS Seaside GEMboree ShowVentura, CA Enter
through the main gates of the Gem Show at the Ventura Fairgrounds.  There will be
a Symposium staff member at the gate with a sign....to direct you to the very
large Santa Cruz Hall building located at the far left-hand side of the
Fairgrounds property.  The GEMboree starts at ten each morning, but our Symposium
attendees can enter at nine, where our speaker-presentations start at 9:30 each morning.
FRIDAY, June 6 9:00 am  Registration.  Symposium doors open.
9:30 am 
GLENN KLEIN.  Welcome introduction remarks.
9:40 am  STEVE ULATOWSKI.  The head
of New Era Gems travels almost constantly to gem mine areas of the World.  His
company supplies much of the great faceting rough that all Faceters want.  We
will hear about some of the trials and tribulations of going to the gem mine
areas. Ten minute stretch break.
10:50 am  RALPH MATHEWSON.  This award-winning
Australian IFC Competition facetor will give a presentation on his unique and
non-subjective method of fairly scoring the work of all competition Faceters. 
His system removes the problem of judges who are biased.
12:00 pm  Lunch Break.
1:00 pm  ART KAVAN.  "The Basics of Competition Cutting and the Use of Mechanical
and Optical Aids," is the title.  This award winning team member in the
Australian IFC Competition will give us information on understanding the basics
of cutting an excellent/or competition gemstone. Ten minute stretch break.
2:10 pm  ROBERT STRICKLAND.  The man who has made it possible for many Faceters to
become facet-cut designers will give a presentation about his latest and well
received Windows version of Gemcad.
3:10 pm  Symposium speaker presentations end
for the day.  The HOSPITALITY HOUR begins at 6:00 pm.
6:00 to 7:30 pm 
HOSPITALITY HOUR in our Symposium building.  Sponsored by the Ultra Tec company,
the Facetron company, and Don Roberts/Poly-Metric OMF concave faceting equipment.
 Hors d'Oeuvres and courtesy bar (one free drink) provided.  Meet the speakers
and your fellow faceters from across the country.
SATURDAY, June 7. 9:00 am 
Symposium doors open. 9:30 am  JONATHAN (Gearloose) ROLFE.  This amazing man will
discuss the construction and performance of his unique cutting and polishing
laps.  His BATT lap is taking over in the faceting world because of its ability
to do an outstanding job of polishing facets. Ten minute stretch break.
10:40 am 
THOMAS CHATHAM.  The son of discoverer Carroll Chatham is the current President
and director of Chatham Created Gems.  Tom will let us in on some of the facts
surrounding the methods and events that have made it possible for Chatham to be
the leader in the art and science of Created Gems since 1938, when father Chatham
created the first laboratory grown gem quality emerald.
11:40 am  Break for the
Awards Luncheon set up.
12:15 pm  AWARDS LUNCHEON in our Symposium building.  A
great lunch is supplied as we learn who the winners are of the NOVICE, ADVANCED,
MASTERS, and BEAUTIFUL GEM contests.  Meet our speakers and find out what part of
the country that facetor sitting next to you comes from.  
1:40 pm  DR. ANTHONY
(Tony) KAMPF.  The curator of Gems and Minerals at the Natural History Museum of
Los Angeles County has guided many trips to various gem areas of the World.  He
will tell us about his favorite destination, the State of Minas Gerais in Brazil.
Ten minute stretch break.
2:50 pm  EWING EVANS.  "KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid,"
is the title.  This three time individual top scoring competition Facetor of the
World will give a presentation about what he knows better than anyone else....how
to POLISH a competition gemstone. 
3:50 pm  Symposium ends for the day.
June 8. 9:00 am  Symposium doors open.
9:30 am  BOB LONG.  "Facet Design Before  GemCad" is Bob's presentation title. 
This co-author of many books about facet
cut designs will share some of his wealth of knowledge with our attendees.  He is
sure to please all of those present at the Symposium. Ten minute stretch break.
10:40 am  PANEL OF EXPERTS.  Our special guest FRED VAN SANT will join other
members of our speaker roster to answer questions and discuss subjects raised by
the Symposium attendees.
12:00 noon  GLENN KLEIN.  Closing remarks.  Symposium ends.
1:00 pm  UNITED STATES FACETERS GUILD general meeting.  ART KAVAN will
chair a gathering of USFG members and anyone else who is interested.  This
meeting will be held in the Symposium building.    


Subject: faceting machines
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:44:12 -0700
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "John Almasi" <jalmasi@cfl.rr.com>

I had the same experience that Doug had with the facetron, but only with two
different ultra-tecs.  I'll never own another one of them, and won't
recommend them.



Hi John,  I have had an Ultratec for 3 years that is probably 30 years old . I have never had a
new machine or cut on another machine so I have no basis to know how to gauge the performance
or lack thereof of my machine other than by the oohs and ahhs when a stone is finished and of course
my ability as a gem-rough micro-machinist to satisfy my desire to produce a technically correct cut.



Subject: Carolina Faceter's Club
From: "Doug & Beth Dover" <ddover@carolina.rr.com>
To: <owner-lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:54:36 -0400

Hi Thurmond,

I would like for you to add our local faceter's club to the guild list.
We are the Carolina Faceter's Club and meet at the Schiele Nature Museum in
Gastonia, NC on the second Tuesday of each month, except July, August and
September, at 7:30 p.m. Membership is open to anyone in the area (central
North & South Carolina)  with an interest in faceting and gem cutting in
general. Contacts are Alan Smith rocklicker@earthlink.net and Doug Dover



Hi Doug,

Your Club should be added by the time this list goes out today.










PERSONALS: (General Lapidary and Faceting)






Lurking is fine, but participation is better for learning !
Post something from your experiences in gemcutting today!


Subject: Funny
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 18:31:57 -0400
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "J Wagstaff" <wagstajo@kos.net>


It has been confirmed by the South Central Health Foundation in
Newfoundland that two residents have been diagnosed with  SARS.

One purr fella has a sar elbow and the second a sar knee.

Lord tundren gesus b'y, better be careful.



Each time anyone comes into contact with us,
they must become different and better people
because of having met us.
We must radiate Gods love.
We must know that we have been created for greater things,
not just to be a number in the world,
not just to go for diplomas and degrees,
this work and that work.
We have been created in order to love and to be loved.
Love does not measure. . . it just gives.

---Mother Teresa---


is produced by Thurmond Moore III

Tempie Francis, Attorney at Law / Legal Advisor


is never sent unsolicited.  You are receiving it
because you subscribed to it at our digest subscription page at:


To unsubscribe, just use the link below and follow the
instructions there:


List Posting Guidelines and rules can be found at:
Published Monday thru Friday, except holidays
from Spur,Texas
Share your love of lapidary with everyone.