Issue No.62 - Monday February 10, 2003
Moderated by: Thurmond Moore III
Committed to carrying on the fine works started
by Hale Sweeny and Jerry Dewbre
Click a link below to post to the list:
for faceting questions  faceters@caprock-spur.com
for lapidary questions lapidary@caprock-spur.com
From the Moderator:

Thanks to everyone for your continued post.
Without you the list members this list would
not exist.

Index to Today's Digest

01  RE: Star orientation methods
02  RE: Star orientation methods
03  RE: pro and cons of individual faceting machines
04  RE: polishing Turquoise
05  RE: polishing Turquoise
06  RE: polishing Turquoise
07  Blue Sapphire color?
08  Question on pricing


Subject: RE:Star Orientation Methods
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 18:07:11 -0800
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Orville & Rose Alene" <obmcarthur@clearwater.net>

Tom Donahue; 
    On your Idaho star garnet material, I understand that the easiest
way to orient large complete crystals is to consider each flat as a
potential base for a cab.  The apex would be cut with the point aiming
at the center of the crystal.
    If they are good star garnets they are probably 'way too dark to be
    We have a talk to our club mid-month by a fellow who has collected
and worked central Idaho garnets for year.  I will try to share any good
tips I pick up from his presentation.

Sincerely, Rose Alene McArthur


Subject: Thanks
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 07:22:46 -0700
To: <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: <wreisbick@mho.net>

I would like to thank everyone that responded to my questions about star
sapphires. I learned a great deal more from this forum then I did from
the books I read. It was explained much better. I am new to the world of
gemstones and most of my efforts have been directed at faceting. It
gives me something to do and brings me new friends.

Walter Reisbick retired


Subject: what machine?
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 22:44:57 EST
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Tymib@aol.com

Hi!  I would like to give a thought to Cheryl ... having been through it, I
think i learned one thing clear:  don't lapse on laps.

Since you gave no idea how much $ you want to spend, this may be irrelevant,
but near as i can tell after some experience and much reading of forums,
every major, well-known brand of machine from a Graves to a Facette has its
users and advocates- all of whom produce very loverly gems.  But largely from
experience, also from reading, NO ONE produces very loverly gems from lousy
laps.  I had the great idea that i would start with a great machine and get
good laps latter ... if you have the budget do both now, but if $ are
limited, please do thyself a favor and be sure the basics are covered.
For what it is worth, i have found that, for me, dyna disks are fine up to
600 grit ... one solid steel Crystallite 1200 is worth its weight in gold. 
For prepolish i use a copper with 8k diamond, for polish you just can't beat
a BATT lap for many materials... i my weak opinion.  Minimum i think would be
a dyna-disk 360 (first any 180 you can get cheap for very rough shaping of
large irregular rough, but not necessary) ... a Crystalitte 1200, a BATT lap.
Hope you enjoy the art! 

bill b


Subject: Re: Issue No.61 - Friday February 7, 2003
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 21:04:47 EST
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com
From: Cutugem@aol.com

Thurmond, I have luck polishing turquoise on a buffing pad dry using zam. It
also works quite well on lapis. I used cerium on a leather pad for years
until i noticed this working while buffing a ring with a stone in it.

Dennis on the North Coast


Hi Dennis, Some one at my local club suggested Zam as well. I will have to
get a bit to try out.



Subject: polish
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:10:29 -0800
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Bud Schroeder <bshmt@juno.com>

I have good luck polishing turquoise using Cerium oxide on swede leather.
Run at slow to medium speed and keep wet. If you get in a hurry or let
the pad dry out you will get orange peel. Run slow & wet and you will get
a good polish. I hope this helps.
..........Bud Schroeder........
           In the center of So, Calif.


Thanks Bud, I have already learned about orange peel the hard way.
I will give it a try.


Subject: polishing turquoise
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 23:23:09 -0800
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Jeanne Ring <starlitekieko@juno.com>

Hi Thurmond:
I use this set up for all soft lapidary rocks including Turquoise or

Some years ago while I was hunting Washington State green Opal I wandered
into Golden Eagle Jewelry in Lewiston Idaho. I noticed in his shop he had
 added a washing machine motor to a  old Gem Pro or similar. It had a one
piece aluminum flat lap with sleeve that screws on to  the vertical
shaft. It hums around like a washing machine with a nice slow rotation.
I talked him into building one for me.  I use Zam green on canvas rounds
on a black sponge rubber back. I can really push the stone into the
canvas if I want to. I've tried a lot of different combinations and have
used Zam on leather for some of the tough ones. I have tried spray
diamond and every thing under the sun and some worked fine. However the
Zam on different grades of canvas was my overall favorite.   I assume you
used something like Opticon to stabilize your turquoise. The Zam on the
slow speed works very well on the Optician and also that  Washington
State Green Opal with red or white ribbons and  wisps in clear or
peridot/bronze  kind of color that I was looking for.  I scored about 370
pounds from a road cut near Spokane. I've had a lot of fun with it.

Jeanne in the N.W.


Thanks for the information but now you have me coveting some of that opal. :)


Subject: sapphire
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 11:39:51 -0600
To: "LapidaryArtsDigest" <lapidary@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Vernon Matthews" <matthews@bhil.com>

I would like to know the element that gives the blue color to sapphires.
  Now, I know they are corundums  (Al2 O3) and I know that the red
coloring element for rubies is chromium........but what is the element
that gives sapphires their blue color.   I don't think it is
cobalt..........that IS used in synthetic sapphires......but I am more
inclined to think it is titanium.   I'm just not sure of anything at
this time.
Can anyone out there help??          Thanks,         Vern  Matthews
Bunker Hill, Illinois


From Gemstones of the World by Walter Schumann Blue Sapphire is colored by
iron and titanium.


Subject: Question on pricing
Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 11:49:25 -0500
From: anotherbrightidea@hotmail.com <Douglas Turet>

Hi, everyone,

     I need some advice, and am really hoping you'll share your experience
and professional insights on this situation with me, if you have any that
     Normally, when someone asks me to perform lapidary work for them, they
either do so because they've damaged a stone and need it repaired, or
because they've purchased a rough and want to have it cut for the first
time. Recently though, a jeweler came to me and asked me to use whatever
resources are necessary to first locate a series of (colored stone) roughs
to cut specific sizes and shapes, and then cut these for him, for a line
he's putting together...
     Here's my quandary: how do I effectively charge for the fact that my
time, my business contacts, my networking (to find and then negotiate with
new contacts), my pricing/negotiating skills, my gem rough grading and
gemstone-cut designing abilities and, of course, my cutting are all being
used here, _before_ any stones are even placed in the jeweler's hands? How
can I both come out ahead on this _and_ still provide this client with the
means to bring his product to market, cost effectively. To put things into
some frame of perspective, I should probably mention that the stones in
question include very high-end Rubies, Pink and Blue Sapphires, Aquas,
Spessartites and Rubellites, all in sizes over 4 Cts, each!
     The options that've occurred to me, so far, include:

1)  Charging a higher "flat rate" per finished stone (though this would
place the same value on a $400 Pink Tourmaline as it would a $4,000 Ruby,
and wouldn't compensate me evenly, for the R&D time needed), or

2)  Charging one fee -- an hourly "consulting" rate -- for the R&D time, in
addition to my normal cutting charges. (though such an arrangement would
necessarily not work twice, since my new sources would already have been
developed and, therefore, I'd be doing more legwork for less pay, which
doesn't sit right with me), or

3) "Charging" the client an equal piece of rough for each piece that I'm
procuring for him, so that _my_ inventory grows at the same rate as his
does. (Although I've used a similar method for payment, called "cutting on
shares", when others have brought me large lots of gem rough to be cut,
doing so with this client will mean [to him] that his costs for each stone
will be 100% more than the actual costs of the rough. while this'd work for
lesser roughs, how do I keep the client _as_ a client, when the costs
skyrocket, on such things as fine Rubies and Sapphires?)

     ...So, you see the quandary! How do I present the client with   both a
cost-effective means of getting the quality of color and cutting he wants,
at a price he (and his custoners) can afford, without cheating myself, in
the process? I realize that several of you are out of town at shows, at the
moment, but if you could address this when you return, it'd really mean a
great deal to me. In case it needs to be said, here, my challenge is to
provide a means of taking advantage of this opportunity, without "taking
advantage" of my customer (or appearing to do so). Thank you, in advance,
for your consideration and insights.

Warmest wishes and best regards,
Doug Turet

Douglas Turet, GJ
Lapidary Artist, Designer & Goldsmith.
Turet Design
P. O. Box 162
Arlington, MA 02476, U.S.A.
Tel. (617) 325-5328
Fax: (928) 222-0815
Email: anotherbrightidea@hotmail.com


Hi Doug,  How about a  percentage from final product sales?




Hale Sweeny's Lapidary Digest Archives http://www.lapidarydigest.com/
International Lapidary Association http://www.gemcutters.org
http://webdev.archive.org/ then enter www.liccini.com


Facetron: http://www.facetron.com/
Graves: http://www.rockhounds.com/graves/
MDR: http://www.mdr-facet.com/
Polymetric: http://www.polymetricinc.com/
Ultra-tec: http://www.ultratec-facet.com
Fac-Ette Manufacturing Company: (910)256-9248
http://www.fac-ette.com/ 800-336-9248.
Raytech Industries: http://www.raytech-ind.com
Rock Peddler: 1-800-416-4348 / www.rockpeddler.com



Accredited Gemologists Association, http://aga.polygon.net/
American Gem Society, (AGS) 702-255-6500
American Gem Trade Association, (AGTA) http://www.agta.org
Gemmological Assc. & GTL / Great Britain, http://www.gagtl.ac.uk/gagtl
Gemmological Association of Australia, http://www.gem.org.au
Gemological Institute of America, (GIA) http://www.gia.edu.giagem
International Gem Society (IGS) web site is: http://www.gemsociety.org
International Colored Gemstone Association, http://www.gemstone.org
My Gemologist http://www.mygemologist.com


FACETING GUILDS (Alphabetically, World) ~

*Charleston Faceting Guild, South Carolina, wmcnay@mindspring.com.
*Columbia-Willamette Faceter's Guild, http://www.facetersguild.com/
*Danish Faceters Guild, http://medlem.spray.se/danfacet/
*East/Central Florida:Tomoka Gem and Mineral Society's Faceters Guild,
Don Cameron: ghgemcutter@earthlink.net
*Eastern Mass Faceter's Group, rockpeddler@attbi.com
*Faceter's Forum Society-LaPorte, IN VESteele@aol.com
*Faceter's Guild of N. California, Wayne Meissner, lklomp@cnetech.com
*Faceter's Guild of S. California, Jerry W. Carroll, (818)348-6327
*Intermountain Faceter's Guild, Carl M. Unruh, (360)385-3753
*Midwest Faceter's Guild, Tyler Miller,  tmiller277@comcast.net
*Mid-Williamette Faceters Guild, Albany, Oregon, Michael E. Bumcrot;
E-mail @ MBumcrot@valleyoilco.com
*Moreton Bay is a branch of the Australian Facetors' Guild, Brisbane,
Queensland. http://cwpp.slq.qld.gov.au/afg
*New Mexico Faceter's Guild, Nancy Attaway, attaway@highfiber.com
*North Puget Sound Faceting Guild, Keith Wyman, tfw@fidalgo.net
*Tacoma Faceting Guild, Chuck Bloch chuck_b@prodigy.net
*Texas Faceter's Guild, Jill Rowlands, gemsbyj@aol.com
*Seattle Faceting Club (LeonardBahr@prodigy.net)
*United States Faceting Guild (Keith Wyman, tfw@fidalgo.net)
*Vancouver Island Faceters' Guild - British Columbia, Canada.

(Add your faceting organization here, US or International - Write to
( owner-lapidary@caprock-spur.com or owner-faceters@caprock-spur.com )



The geology poem
Ode to Olivine in Thin Section, a poem by Brenna Lorenz

In basalt a lurid green
Bespeaks the savage olivine;
Mantle's child, born of fire,
Restless in the open air,
Little beads of anger bear
The torture of desire.

Silica upon its face
It suffers, helpless, in disgrace,
Its powers of reaction bound
By solid's bond and cage,
In agony confined to rage
Unstable and unsound.

Its birefringent power plays
The sifted light to rare displays;
The haunting, primal colors tell
Of fire and fury's flag unfurled,
Flag of fluid, nether world,
Beneath the fragile shell.



" I hear, and I forget.
I see, and I remember.
I do, and I understand."

--- Author Unknown ---



The Lubbock Gem and Mineral Society is looking for 2 more vendors
for our Spring Show at the Lubbock Civic Center May 17th and 18th.
Setup day for the show is Friday May 16, 2003.  If you are a vendor and
would like more information concerning the show please call Ed Ries at


Subject: Subject add
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 15:47:26 -0500
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "RICHARD P ROSENTHAL" <kenaii@earthlink.net>

Date Febuary 6th /03      
Green Siberian Nephrite Jade
Carving ,Sculpture Grade, Some Black Spots, Ten dollars a pound up to
fifty pound pieces.
Jewelry grade, Green with Green chrome spots, Superior Transluscense and
Color, Fifty dollars per pound
Please contact Kenaii@earthlink.net    or check the material out at


TUCSON           February 6 - February 11, 2003             TUCSON
LOWE  ASSOCIATES  -  Robert P. Lowe Jr. invites you to visit us in
Booth # 205 at the GJX - Gem & Jewelry Exchange, Downtown Tucson, for
TOURMALINES - in Greens, Pinks, Indicolite, Rubelite, Salmon, Yellow,
Silver, Orange, Purple, Bi-color, Tri-color, - sliced, faceted,
cabochons, Paraiba and Rough. TOURMALINES in Watermelon Slices,
Singles, Matched Pairs, Sets, Cabochon Slices, plus all the other
Brazilian Colored Stones, including - Aquamarine, Citrine, Blue Beryl,
Rutilated Quartz (Calibrated), Imperial Topaz, Alexandrite, Kunzite,
Brazilian Opals - Crystal & Boulder, rare Purple Topaz Specimens,
Amethyst, Morganite, Faceted Gemstone Beads, Emeralds - faceted,
cabochon, carved & Slices, Emerald Faceting Rough, Emerald Crystals,
Emerald Specimens, Emerald Jewelry - And Faceted Spessartite Garnet.
Rough - Dark Aquamarine, Amethyst, Citrine, Spessartite garnet,
Lowe  Associates  -  Robert P. Lowe Jr.
Rua do Mirante, 573
13801-100 Mogi Mirim, SP, Brasil
Telephone: 55-19-3862-4217
Telefax:   55-19-3806-4354
e-mail: < robertplowejr@juno.com > in USA
e-mail: < robertplowejr@uol.com.br > in Brazil


Rough to Cut
If you're looking for quality facet rough please check out Rough to Cut,
http://www.roughtocut.com. We offer a wide range of quality facet rough
from Aquamarine to Zircon. Large selections in stock currently of Beryl,
Garnets & Tourmalines. Please check us out & when you do, why not give a
try to our contest, you could win a 5ct + piece of Spessartite garnet
facet rough.

Rough to Cut


Subject: AD
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:50:44 -0800
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: "P. Miklik" <b-daw@pacbell.net>

Contact b-daw@pacbell.net

Honey, red & brown zircons, 10g parcels @$20/parcel

Red Garnet $8/g, eye clean-slightly included
Spessartine Garnet $7.50/g, slight-moderately included
Malaya Garnet $6/g, good eye clean roughs
Tunduri Garnet $10/g, eye clean-slightly included

Pink Tourmaline $20/g, eye clean-slightly included
Red Tourmaline $10/g, slight-moderately included
Bicolor Tourmaline $15/g, eye clean
Watermelon Tourmaline $20/g eye clean
Green/Green Blue Tourmaline $10/g, eye clean roughs

Blue, Green & Blue/Green Sapphires $35/g, eye clean-slightly         
included, up to 1g.

Blue Beryl (Aquamarine) $6/g, eye clean-slightly included crystals
Green Beryl (Emerald) $10-$50/g, eye clean-slightly included crystals,
zoned green
Cabbing Grade Aquamarine $3/g


Rock Peddler
Complete online discount catalog for cabbing and faceting machines, wheels,
laps, polishes, diamond saws, diamond blades, and general lapidary supplies
at http://www.rockpeddler.com.


Gewelers Gems
e-mail: sales@jewelersgems.com
Solid copper laps 1/4 thick 8" and 6"  you can charge both sides with
diamond. http://www.jewelersgems.com

NOW ONLINE!  RRGaetan Gem Rough - Featuring excellent, facet-grade,
Colombian Emerald rough! PLUS, Chrome Tourmaline, Achroite Tourmaline,
Golden Chrome Tourmaline, Aquamarine, Spess, Mint and Malaya Garnets,
and more! For photos and more information, visit us at rrgaetan.com.




For All National and International Masters, Past-Masters and
World-Class Cutters:

This post is simply a reminder that in 2003 the USFG will host its
first National and International Faceting Competition.  It is called
the North American Faceting  Challenge -- 'NAFC.'   Since the designs
and rules were first published in the 2001 September Issue of  the
USFG's Newsletter, and since they have not been published since 2001,
some of you, who are most capable - skill-wise, may not
know about the competition, and some of you may have forgotten.   The
"NAFC" is an OPEN Competition.   Please note:  The designs and rules
can be downloaded at  <http://www.usfacetersguild.org/events.shtml>.
The closing date is June 20th, 2003;  the amount of time between the
present date and June 20th, 2003 should be enough for all Master
cutters to cut the two required designs -- Fred Van Sant's "Four
Star," and Charles Covill's "Wind Wheel No. 2."   If   further
information is needed, please contact me at <clmoon@pacbell.net>.

Charlie Moon





  Presented by the Faceter's Guild of Southern California
    At the Seaside GEMboree AFMS/CFMS Convention & Show
           Ventura, California June 6-7-8, 2003

     You are invited to participate in the Faceters
Symposium 2003 which will be held at the Seaside Park
(Ventura Fairgrounds) at Ventura, California during the
AFMS/CFMS Convention & Show.  The Faceters Symposium dates
are June 6th, 7th, & 8th.  That is Friday, Saturday, &
Sunday.  The CFMS GEMboree is on those dates as well as on
Thursday the 5th of June.  All of this is at the same
location, just a hundred yards from the beach.

     The Faceters Symposium will feature ten speakers, who
will have presentations covering various parts of gemstone
faceting interests.  A Hospitality Hour on Friday evening
and a Saturday Awards Luncheon are also part of the
Symposium.  There will be competitions at the Novice,
Advanced, & Masters levels.  Get started on your
competition entry soon.

     The CFMS GEMboree itself will have buildings that have
exhibits on display, dealers with their wares to offer,
demonstrators to show how it is done, and speakers with
presentations covering other lapidary fields of interest.

     For information & costs regarding the Faceters
Symposium (including competition information), your contact
is listed below.  Ask for one of the Packets.  Be sure to
state your snail mailing address so that a Packet can be
mailed to you.

Glenn Klein, Chairman
24001 Muirlands Blvd., Space #79
Lake Forest, CA 92630        email:   glennklein@yahoo.com


Lubbock Gem and Mineral Society is proud to present it's
45th Annual Gem, Mineral, Fossil,& Jewelry Show.
WHEN: May 17-18, 2003
Where: Lubbock Civic Center, Lubbock, Texas
Time: Sat.5/17: 10am-6pm
          Sun.5/18: 10am-5pm
For more information contact Archie Scott
e-mail: asscott2@door.net
telephone: 806-894-1584       



KANSAS: If anyone in the central portion of the country from Oklahoma city
to Wichita to Kansas City would be interested in forming something like the
Flatland Facet Guild or some such name give me a line at
Larry W. Davis

ILLINOIS - MISSOURI (Central Area, hubed around St. Louis, Missouri) A
group of 4 faceters have met and we had a great time. We intend to meet
again and would like to have fellow faceters join our group. I received an
email from another Newbie that expressed interest in attending our next get
together. Faceters from any and all areas are welcome... It's swell to meet
personally and exchange tips and hints! COME JOIN OUR GROUP! It's FREE! ;o)
Doug Smith, Alton, IL .at: gembin@spiff.net

INDIANA: I moved to Valparaiso, (Northwest) Indiana, about three years ago.
Are there any clubs in this area? or is there anyone interested in starting
one? I do faceting and some cabbing. Not much here but cornfields. Nice
scenery, but I get sooooooo lonely. LOL Let me know. (Bill) "William
J.Pysnack" <wjpin@home.com>

S.E. LOUISIANA: Anyone in or around the New Orleans, LA area wishing to
form a club or have get togethers for faceting, discussions, cabbing,
procurement, etc. Please contact me via email @ tbird@bayouself.org. (Thom
Bird - Chalmette, LA)

MISSISSIPPI: If anyone is near Meridian Mississippi and would be interested
in forming some kind of club or just get together with faceting and/or
cabbing please e-mail me at jennings@netdoor.com Thanks, Jim

TEXAS: Anyone in the Corpus Christi or Coastal Bend area that is interested
in starting a local faceter's guild contact me at: hankswan@earthlink.net or
gemscc@msn.com or telephone 361-857-2405 (days) or 361-992-1296
(evenings).Hank swan

WASHINGTON DC.(Rockville Md area) Looking for folks to get together
occasionally to facet. I have just started faceting and am also interested
in sphere making (infinate # of facets) Robert Winfield

Lurking is fine, but participation is more fun!! Get involved!!


is produced by Thurmond Moore III

Tempie Francis, Attorney at Law / Legal Advisor


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