Issue No. 197 - Thursday, August 28, 2003
Moderated by: Thurmond Moore III
Committed to carrying on the fine works of
Hale Sweeny and Jerry Dewbre
Hi all,

Short list today. Get those post in for tomorrow.
Today will be the last Digest till Tuesday September
2nd. I have a 4 day weekend and will be working on my
ranch which has no internet access at this time.

Great News: Hale Sweeny has contacted me offering
His Lapidary Digest Archives for the gemcutters.org site.
I will let everyone know when they are ready to go.

Send your PICS for posting to:


Index to Today's Digest

01  NEW: Spammers, Kill'em ALL!!!
02  RE: Stuck Dop
03  NEW: Precision LP Gas Torch
04  FS: Optivisors


Subject: Re: Issue No. 196 - Wednesday, August 27, 2003
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:34:35 -0400
To: lapidary@caprock-spur.com
From: webmaster@gearloose.com

The webmaster address will be disabled shortly because of spam.
Know a spammer?
Kill Them.
Use <jon@gearloose.com>


Hi Jon, Point me to one and I will use my 4" Cannon on him. LOL


Subject: stuck dop
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:09:04 -0700
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "Neil F. Talcott" <neil@wa7bhc.lovelock.nv.us>

One more thing that might be tried with the stuck dop-- immerse the dop in a
glass of crushed ice and salt mix, give it a few minutes to cool then warm
the chuck either with a hot cloth ( safest) or the alcohol lamp. The key
word here is WARM don't go over board and get anything to hot as a machine
shop can drill it out if this doesn't work.
Above all be sure to bow down to the great dop God in the land where all
lost stones go!  Good Luck.


Subject: Precision LP Gas Torch
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:34 -0600
To: <faceters@caprock-spur.com>
From: "jake" <efjke@msn.com>

   If any of you are not aware of it, there is a big problem many have to
face.  I am limited to one pound of gas, period.  From my research I have
found this is far more widespread than assumed.  A letter on the Orchid list
began with, "as you know you and are prohibited by the state we live in to
not more than one pound of propane indoors."  It went on to say that
(whatever state it was) you could have acetylene by state law.  However in
this case local ordinances and zoning regulations very often ban this.  As
they do in perhaps the majority of residential zoning.  Sometimes with stiff
fines and/or the threat of imprisonment, and yes it could happen.  This is
to say nothing of insurance companies and landlords. Another problem is that
acetylene use is becoming more tightly regulated, and is widely banned.
This runs off of LP or more commonly called propane. For me, if I lived a
few miles to the west, no problem, except that the rental company and their
insurance carrier would have no part of it.

  On a letter I posted a while back I did receive several good replies.  One
person on this list mentioned that he got a hold of a secondhand oxygen
generator for he said I think a hundred dollars.  This is almost an act of
theft, as I looked up what a new one cost, and no wonder I never considered
it.  If any of have that chance, go for it. As for building a water torch
that runs off of hydrogen I agree with the comment that if you don't
understand exactly what you are doing this is pretty scary stuff. If you are
doing silver work good solutions outside of a water torch, which is still
not common because of the expense, are few.  That is when faced with the
restriction have mentioned.

   Anyway I myself am limited to one pound of LP for any torch I use at
home, as are others.  The way this is usually handled is of course to ignore
all zoning regulations and/or law and simply use acetylene.  If, as in my
case, you have asked questions, you can hardly plead ignorance after the
fact in the event anything is made of it.

  Some of you may have noticed that some butane torches burn at 2500 F,
although the information I got from Bernzomatic shows propane to burn hotter
in air (3450F vs. 3200 F).  This is usually 1875 F, however, in actual
performance.  When I talked to the technical department of Gentec, they
claimed that part # 22-7S-2TP (the smallest propane/air swirl tip) will put
out 3000F.  This may also be when using mapp.  This drops with larger tips.
This may be why the torch tips on this torch and some others are radically
different compared to the turbo/swirl flame tip.

  All I can say is that if this torch lives up to expectations, and I
believe it will and then some, then you have a product worthy of
consideration.  Moreover this will solve (at least as I plan to configure
it) the gas limitation faced by me.  Many of you have no plans to buy a
torch, but I can say if you are curious, this is well worth taking a look

 You can also reach Martian Planert by writing to P.O. Box 981, Bega NSW
2550 Australia.  This is the person to get in touch with on this torch.  He
is the company's representative, unfortunately he lives in Australia, which
is not that much of a problem.  The link for this (what I am speaking of) is
http://www.apecs.com.au/guild/lpgas.htm and the email is Planert@bigpond.com
also the micro welding torch is on a link.  (Some of you may be interested
in this last item). The torch comes up on the gooogle search engine only if
LP gas torch is entered, but not otherwise, something I need to remember to
tell them.  (Try, precision lp gas torch, it will be the first item.)

  Remember that the price is in Australian dollars.  Which when converted
offers a very attractive price.  This works out, after checking this today
with the exchange rates, to be $102.03 for the basic LP and $118.83 for the
other.  If you can get a good torch for a hundred dollars it is a deal.
Well, actually a hundred and two.  Although, I would recommend spending the
$118, I believe it comes with the melting tip also.  Remember that the
Australian dollar is just over 64 cents to us. The Planerts would be willing
to sell you one though, and as said, it has what I consider to be an
attractive price.  Moreover it may be easiest to go through them.  As policy
this is shipped with a regulator (at least usually, as it is usually
required).  So make sure you get the right one as European (UK, Australian,
et al) and American are not the same.

  In any event it will ship with the fittings.  If not the right ones, it is
not a big problem.  I talked to a propane supplier.  After I balked, he told
me that it is not like it is a special order part, and it is easy to put on
the right fitting to fit the regulator.  They do it all the time.  (I would
rather have a part to take care of this.  A double threaded nut that is
metric to American, but this last will work if need be.)

 When the question of the pressure in a disposable canister and the
regulator came up, considerable time and effort went into that to be sure it
would work and what the right items were.

  As for the torch, the regulator should be set at between 400 KPa and 600
KPa.  First thing that came up was what in the hell is a KPa.  Well now I
know.  The torch setting should be set at between 58.01 and 87.02 PSI.  Then
I found out that the Propane canister is typically at 125 PSI.  This was
looking promising, and then I asked Smith what their regulators are set at
and was told between 8 and 10 PSI.  I found out that the Gentec, Uniweld,
and another were set up to 60 PSI.  (The other I will not mention as when I
called the distributor they recommended, I was quoted a price of $87).
Goss's reply was, "PSI for EP-20BR is approx. 50 psi.  EP-20R is approx. 30
psi.  EP-70G is 0-60 psi.  Sorry for the delay." 60 PSI is 413.68 KPa, so it
will work.  Although cutting it a bit close, it should not be a problem.
Uniweld looks to be the product, if needed.

 Remember I am not sure if the company in Germany makes a regulator for the
disposable canister, so this is something I absolutely had to know.  I hope
they do, as it would likely be a bit higher than 60 PSI.  Most likely I will
have to buy a regulator.  I have also thought of another possible solution.
The Shark torch has a connector for a disposable gas canister.  (This is not
a regulator).  I also have been told that it will work without a regulator.
However the best solution, I think, would be a regulator that goes up to or
can be set so as to not to go over 87 PSI.  (Or 600 KPa, the highest
recommended setting.).  If anyone out there knows of regulator for a
disposable can that goes over 60 PSI that information would be welcome.

  Some of you may feel that too much effort and time has been spent on this.
Remember that there are an awful lot of people out there who are faced with
exactly the same problem.  The one pound of gas regulation (and/or sometimes
law).  This means of course that you are stuck with disposable propane can.
The kind you buy at the hardware store or Wal-Mart etc. I considered a Smith
Silversmith; this can also be had to run off a disposable canister.  I think
this is a better solution as the smith was originally for acetylene, this is
designed for LP right from the start.  I also noticed that I got no replies
on how the Smith runs off of propane, I have some idea how this dose. Below
is some of the email correspondence, condensed and edited.
Dear Eric,
 "Thank you very much for your enquiry about the Precision LP Gas Torch.  I
am working with it in my goldsmithing studio myself and am very satisfied
with it.  The large melting tip will speed up soldering on large silver
items and it is of course suitable for casting silver."

   "The fast release pressure knob is an optional accessory.  Pressing this
knob releases the
Largest possible amount of gas quickly and therefore produces an instant
large flame.
However to sustain this flame it needs to be pushed continuously or the red
needle valve
needs to be adjusted, which you usually use to regulate the flame size. "

 I think I have found what I needed.  As soon as possible I will have the
answers and will be happy to give out that information regardless of how
this turns out.  Oh yes, I am having one sent to me.

E. Jakeman
Ogden, Utah


Subject: Shameless commercial solicitation
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:26:20 -0500
To: faceters@caprock-spur.com
From: Gene Goldsand <egoldsand@earthlink.net>

All this talk about binocular magnifiers (one of my favorite subjects, even
before I couldnt see without one)
has reminded me that I have a stack of New in the Box, Optivisors made by
the Donegan Optical company.
I have three with the #3 lensplate( 1.75X 14" working distance)and two with
the #7 lensplate( 2.75x 6"working distance). I will ship them to list
members on a first come, first serve, basis,  for $27 by parcel post.
Insurance, or proof of mailing is extra. I accept paypal, but please add
$0.75 to cover their charges. This is about $10 or so, less than recent
delivered prices on fleabay.










PERSONALS: (General Lapidary and Faceting)






Lurking is fine, but participation is better for learning !
Post something from your experiences in gemcutting today!


Prison vs being a Housewife

In prison, all your medical care is free.

At home, you have to pawn your mother's silver
and fill out trillions of papers for insurance and hope
the doctor will see you before you die.

In prison, if you have visitors, all you do is go to a
room, sit, talk and then say good-bye when you
are ready or your time is up.

At home, you get to clean for days in advance and
then cook and clean up after your guests and hope
that they will one day leave.

In prison, you can spend your free time writing letters
or just hang out in your own space all day.

At home, you get to clean your space and everyone
else's space, too, and what the heck is free time again?

In prison, you get your own personal toilet.

At home, you have to physically hold the bathroom door
shut in order to keep from having someone standing over
you demanding to know how long till you're done so you
can do something for them.

In prison, the prison laundry takes care of all your dirty clothes.

At home, you get to take care of them yourself, plus everybody
else's, and get yelled at because somebody's favorite shirt isn't

In prison, they take you everywhere you need to go.

At home, you take everybody else where they need to go.

In prison, the guards transport all your personal effects for you
and make sure nothing is missing.

At home, you have to lug around everybody else's stuff in your
purse and then wonder who went in it and took your last dollar.

In prison, there are no screaming or whining children or spouses
asking you to do something else for them, or screaming at you
because you didn't.

At home....stop me when I get to the downside of jail, will ya?



You cant depend on your judgment when
your imagination is out of focus.

---Mark Twain---


is produced by Thurmond Moore III

Tempie Francis, Attorney at Law / Legal Advisor


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